Because the actual War is Over information one of its first
casualties is a man called Doug Mackey who during the 2016 election made fun of
Hillary Clinton on Twitter and then a few years later found himself the subject of a federal raid an indictment
and then a conviction it's a shocking story it's hard to believe it's happening in this country but it is and
to prove it Doug Mackey joins us now Doug thanks so much for coming on thank you tuer so um I've never even seen you
in person before you have not I don't think spoken about this publicly or at least very often uh since it happened so
give us just a quick background on who you are I read I think in BuzzFeed that you were a dangerous white Nation
nationalist militant are you no no not at all you don't see it where are you
from uh I grew up in Vermont in Vermont yes not a hot bit of white nationalist
militancy uh and where'd you go to college what were you doing during the 2016 election Etc uh I graduated from
Middlebury College which is also in Vermont Y and then I moved to New York
uh I lived there about 6 years that's where I was at the time of the election the 2016 ction what were you doing uh so
I had just left my job but I was previously an economic researcher huh so
for like a Wall Street firm or something like that uh something like that Corporate America yes so what were you
doing during the 2016 election so I was posting a lot of stuff on Twitter under
a pseudonym about the election H what kind of stuff um prot Trump memes jokes
uh all kinds of links that kind of thing why were you doing that uh just purely
out of passion so you like Trump I like Trump that's right why um I thought he
was a breath of fresh air for the country uh I think that his analysis of
you know the problems with the country the with the ruling class of the country I liked what he was saying and I thought
he had a positive vision for the country where were you politically before the 2016 election um was sort of
uh conservative previously I was sort of libertarian uh but earlier in my life I
was sort of apolitical so you weren't a lifelong political activist no but you got excited about Trump and you decided
to support him on social media at the time did you think that was your constitutional right yes absolutely why
did you think that well I thought that this was America I thought they way to First Amendment okay due process rights
uh uh that we could criticize people in our ruling class it looks like you thought wrong so
let's get specific about what you did the crimes the felonies that you committed on Twitter um you I want to
put this up you posted this on Twitter this is a meme it says save time avoid the line vote from home and it's got a
picture of Hillary Clinton text Hillary to this number did you make this meme no
I didn't oh you didn't you didn't create this no where where did it come from I
found it uh on for okay so it was floating around the internet yeah these kind of means were floating all over the
place and you posted it on Twitter why did what was the point of that uh well
part of my friendship itot is called a post yeah uh we talked about this a lot at the trial I
testified uh just sort of a joke rile up everybody muddy the waters and uh mostly
just cuz I thought my audience would find it funny did they yeah absolutely I
find it hilarious you're obviously from northern England you have a very dry sense of humor very dry yeah I notic
that noticed that so uh did you get a sense when you
posted that that that was a crime or that it would be perceived as a crime no absolutely not
H um so we have and I want to play this this is from Hillary Clinton this is
from this April so long after you were indicted uh long after after you went on
trial and this is Hillary Clinton describing that Meme there was just a
trial in Brooklyn where a guy who had been one of the main I guess he was one
of the main people running memes against me in 2016 um he went from what you could
consider free speech I mean both Nancy and I have pretty thick skins people say all kinds of things about us but he went
from that to H running a very deliberate effort to mislead people about where and
how to vote yeah so it went from speech to action meant to subvert the election
because thousands of people who they targeted through their algorithms oh I can text my vote for
Hillary Clinton so Hillary Clinton We I want to deconstruct that in some greater detail in a minute but it Hillary
Clinton apparently took that very seriously you were using using quote algorithms to subvert the election with
that Meme I don't even really know what she means by that I don't know I guess you
post something and it gets taken up into algorithms I'm not exactly sure I was surprised that she said that I did you
have personal algorithms that you used no okay no it's just copy paste and
click a button yeah so like everyone else on social media you see something funny you post it that's right okay so
um describe the rest of your career on Twitter so you you're enthusiastic about Trump I assume are you being paid to
post these things no nobody's paying me you're just a random guy who's amusing
the hell of yourself by pushing your candidate on social media that's that's right that's exactly right um so then
what happens how long were you on Twitter um until 2018 mid
2018 okay um but this criminal tweet is from 201 November so um at any point did you
think that you committed a crime or that others would think that you committed a crime no when did you discover that you
were considered a felon by the US government uh well I had 8 to 10 law enforcement agents come and lock on my
door at 7 a.m. uh 7 days after Joe Biden was
inaugurated did you have any warning that this was coming no no warning so
what were you doing at 7:00 in the morning I was sleeping so you're asleep you hear a knock and then what happens
and then the FBI are you Doug Macky
yes what's going on like I I asked them uh there said you're we have a warrant
for your arrest I said what for for what they didn't tell me till I got to
the courthouse did they cuff you uh yes the FBI threw handcuffs on you at
your home at 7: in the morning and didn't tell you why yes did you have any idea why no I had no idea what was going
through your mind um I knew that uh
politicians could be vindictive and the federal government sometimes could be
influenced by those politicians but and I know that they can sort of get
very creative with Federal statutes so if I was the enemy of their candidate then I thought maybe maybe they could
cook something up but this was an entire election cycle later that was the weird part but I knew
that we had just had a transition of presidents
so so s days after Biden gets inaugurated you get arrested for a
tweet years four years earlier yeah uh what was your
reaction you know it's crazy uh I actually I was a little bit surprised
but I wouldn't put anything past you know what they can do I don't I mean I remember reading
that and thinking clearly I'm missing something you probably murdered somebody
you know or put strict none in the water supply or something it can't really be that you just tweeted something the
previous election cycle and had an F there were 10 FBI agents uh there were four FBI agents and then they had some
local cops and that kind of thing but 10 Law Enforcement Officers yeah were you
waving a gun and screaming you'll never take me alive not quite so you're just like some random guy yeah yeah it was
shocked I had roommates at the time they were in disbelief they couldn't believe it they must have assumed you were like
a drug kingpen or something yeah pretty much they thought I had some kind of secret that I was hiding or something
they were really shocked when they found out what it was yeah I was I was too and it turned out by the way fast forward to
your trial it turns out your crime was exactly what you said it was posting uh
a tweet so what happened then so they took me to the courthouse
and because it was coid there were some delays I just I was in a holding cell
they take off your handcuffs and put you in leg irons um and then you just wait for your
arraignment go for the judge even then I still don't know why I'm
being arrested they got a public defender on Zoom speaking for you and
then uh wait you're in leg irons and you have no idea why you arrested yeah
exactly and not not until I got the a copy of the criminal complaint that I
know what was going on at what point was that after the arraignment and they let
you go they take the leg IRS off and they put you on the streets of West Palm Beach they didn't bring you home
no how far is that from your house 20 mil but the worst part is they didn't I
was going to bring my phone my wallet so I could call a friend or take a taxi
home they said oh no you don't need that you know you don't need that uh that's
just going to delay things for you you'll get out you know it'll take longer for you to get out so don't bring
that so my friends were waiting for me outside and then uh they uh they didn't
know how long it was going to be so they left so I get out of there and fortunately there was a really nice taxi
driver that uh there well one of the guys I was on holding cell with he
helped me uh make it over to the uh train station where I could grab a taxi your new prison friends were helping you
exactly exactly yeah you join a gang no I'm sorry to make light of it I
just don't know I mean in a in in the old America this would provoke an uprising you can't do that you're not
allowed to critic to arrest people for criticizing you but the reaction to your
arrest was very different describe it if you would well I mean there was a lot of
support but you know I was on Rachel mattow that night I mean they were uh
the left was really celebrating this they were celebrating they thought it was terrific to arrest you for making fun of
Hillary Clinton right I mean you're from this country you grew up here did that surprise you yeah I was
I was I was pretty surprised but I got to tell you after uh the left has sort
of done a 180 since 2016 so if they celebrated your
imprisonment um why wouldn't they celebrate your execution some of them
would clearly I think so what kind of supports did you get um
well I got to thank you for uh you showcased my uh my arrest on your show
might have been that night or the next night and um there was just by the way I in the back of my mind I I thought we're
probably going to find out that Doug Macky works for Al-Qaeda I mean there's got story yeah no I mean a lot of people
felt that way well it have to be they can't arrest you for making fun of Hillary Clinton yeah anybody who Lars
the details of my case say that's it you know what's going on like the people
that actually learned the details of the case um but there was a tremendous outpouring of from the
American people people that maybe are conservative but not necessarily people
that support free speech Yes people that don't support un abusive federal
government so yeah people oppos to Fascism speaking of antifa opposes
fascism did they come to your Aid uh no oh they didn't no I'm thinking they're
not sincere what about the ACLU uh they cheered on my arrest the ACLU cheered on
your arrest yeah on what crowns um because they said the well I don't think
they care that much about the First Amendment anymore no it's only the American civil liberties right Union
yeah they uh they were more interested in uh the idea that there was uh this
effort to stop people from exercising their right to vote so they chose that
they chose to support it on that ground so let's let's so let's get to that claim because that's that's the
heart of it so Hillary Clinton um you know whatever her faults who really has
become a vicious person a hater uh sort of dismisses out of hand that you have a First Amendment right to make fun of her
and she does that by saying that people say all kinds of things about us but his went from running a very deliberate
effort to mislead people about where and how to vote an effort to subvert the election
because thousands of people who they targeted through their algorithm algorithms thought oh I can text my vote
for Hillary Clinton now just again to restate you had no quote algorithms no Hillary Clinton has no idea what an
algorithm is needless to say um so you were a a solo operator you're one guy on
your on your laptop but the claim is that you somehow
stole people's right to vote is is there any evidence that that's true no and the
government said that they didn't have to show any evidence of that a trial they said that the fact that there was a
conspiracy was enough they went around and interviewed people because they
would have loved to put someone on the stand who didn't vote because they thought they could text their vote they
couldn't find a single person they couldn't even find people that that they went and looked up people that texted
the meme the number supposedly four years ago and they could even remember doing it or they thought it was silly
and
they wanted to see what would happen they actually interviewed people
how did they know who these people were they subpoenaed their phone
numbers not really yes and their voting records what did this effort
cost I have no idea but millions of dollars it had to have cost that much so
the government couldn't find a single person whose vote was as Hillary Clinton
said subverted by your tweet no and they looked very
hard um how is it a conspiracy um so there were some group
chats where people were creating these memes yes and um I was a member of some
of them some of them I wasn't even a member of and they said that because these people are in this group chat
talking about creating memes that you're part of the conspiracy even though I wasn't talking in these group chats
really participating them at all wasn't paying any attention to them so your trial and we still live in
a country where trials are mostly public I'm sure that will change and it'll be a pure Military Tribunal Star Chamber uh
drumhead proceeding but at the at this point like your trial was took place in public and we can get the transcript and
all that so the media knew that that there was no actual crime here did
anybody from the Associated Press or NBC news or the Washington Post New York Times reexamine this case or take a
close look at the case and say wait a second the guy didn't do anything not that I'm aware of and these are crimes
for which you could have spent 10 years in prison right it felt to me like the media were
cheerleading your prosecution oh yeah definitely some of them by calling you a bigot absolutely
huh um I don't think you are a bigot I assume but even if you were that you're
allowed to have your own views correct right yeah no I'm not a bigot but like I said this is America
right um so why did you get convicted so I got convicted uh that's a
great question uh they basically put 12 people in a courthouse in Brooklyn and
say it's up to you decide whether this meme was satire or whether it was effort
to trick people out of voting so they get to decide 12
people they can drag you into a courthouse anywhere in the country because they say uh since it's tweets
they go over wires so they can they can charge this crime wherever they please so if you post a joke on the internet a
prosecutor in could be the most conservative District or the most liberal District in America can drag you
in and put you in front of 12 people who or going decide whether you were joking they're going to decide what your intent
was did you think you were going to be acquitted to be honest with you no I
thought maybe the jury would hang but I didn't think we would get 12 jurors voting for
aidd do do you have any idea why they voted to convict um well
uh I don't really have a lot of insight into that but with this kind of a charge
um they don't need direct evidence to convict you so really unless I'm
misinterpreting what you're saying you were convicted on the basis of what they claimed your intent was that's exactly
right they could not find a single person who was harmed by this they could find no actual effect of this so-called
subversion of our democracy you didn't actually subvert our democracy there's no evidence that you did no but they
claimed that you wanted to they claimed that I wanted to and that I agreed to enter into a conspiracy with other
people were those people charged uh one of them was he
cooperated cooperated in what way uh he testified
at trial that we had a silent agreement to subvert democracy that's
right did you well I don't know how you can have a silent agreement with someone
a thousand miles away over the internet had you ever met this person no never
met him I didn't even at the time November 2016 I had never even spoken to him one-on-one or I don't even think in
a group chat what role did The Huffington Post play in this case um
they well so I was posting uh pseudonymously uh so they doxed me in
2018 so you were not using your real name as many people don't both on the
internet and in literature uh and a Hu and post reporter decided to
reveal your true identity yes who was the reporter uh Luke O'Brien Luke O'Brien um how did he find out who you
were um just through some basically people that leaked my name to him
basically huh disgruntled people or whatever you want to call it so because
Luke O'Brien did this you were arrested and faced 10 years in prison oh yeah
absolutely I mean they're they're criminal complaint basically was just using what Luke
O'Brien did so it sounds like in effect Luke O'Brien like so many journalists is actually working for the National
Security State in order to imprison and Destroy people who descent could be does it sound that way
a little bit uh I have my suspicions I guess boy you are from
Vermont um I'm I'm tempted to ask you how do you get there from here uh you have a right to be anonymous on the
internet obviously Luke O'Brien's supposed to be like a reporter or something and he's spending his time
trying to discover your identity because he doesn't like your politics what was the effect other than um than the
Federal indictment of being doxed by the huffing post uh it was very difficult
personally for me uh very hard on my family very hard on myself
um and uh very hard on my friends so it was very difficult you know I lost a lot
at at the time but I think it was also to tell me what you lost so I lost basically just friends um I had
difficult relationships with family members uh and I just had to restart everything because you were revealed to
have said naughty things on the internet that's right yeah does sound kind of Soviet doesn't it yeah yeah I think it
does huh um are you afraid to go to prison um I don't think so how many guys
from your class at Middlebury have gone to prison none that I'm aware of none that you're aware of right I mean so I guess
kind of what I'm saying is you're not from a world where it was expected you would wind up facing a prison term no um
how has this changed your view of the United States um well I just I don't know if that we're a free country I'm
not sure I have my doubts like I said so if you can be uh thrown in prison for
making fun of Hillary Clinton I mean does set a precedent does it not
yeah absolutely I mean the scary thing is um if they think that you're you know
conspiring on the internet they can subpoena your entire life and dig through everything you've got so I mean
it sets a very dangerous precedent not only the fact that they can pick you up and and drag you to whatever federal
district they want in the entire country because tweets go over wires
well you know you made fun of Hillary Clinton in 2016 um in a pretty light-hearted way by
the way um it's obvious now that she's evil I mean she she would be delighted
to see you go to prison and that's evil to say it out loud did you know that about her when you mocked her in
2016 I don't know uh I saw what she I mean any politician who roots for her
critics to go to prison is by definition like that's EDM territory well let me just put it this way I saw her reaction
to to when Gaddafi was murdered so yeah I think if anything we
understated uh her Darkness um did members of congress come
out in support of you um some have actually yes in a meaningful way in a
way that helped you um I mean I'm very grateful for it uh I
don't know what you know I don't know how much power they have I mean they can maybe open investigations that kind of
thing but so far they there have been some that have been supportive have any traditional
liberals other than Glenn Greenwalt come out in support of you um very few and
far between it's been very few and far between there are a couple and like uh
more libertarian types and some liberals um some who even might say like oh we
don't like this we thought this was a bad thing rather than just a post or a joke but you know should we be
charging these things with 10year Federal felonies should we like it's an open
question should we really execute him um so where does this leave you in
life so I mean like I said uh I'm just very grateful and very fortunate to have
the support that I've gotten family friends and just regular people who have
come to my support so that you know hopefully this will be an opportunity and not a you know not like I said
hopefully this is an opportunity an opportunity for what um well there's there's uh something
Redemptive about suffering so we'll find out yes I think that's right but I mean
how so in the past several years since you were indicted like how much of your life has been spent dealing with this
case uh well I've got great lawyers that have uh handled it a lot of it for me
but definitely a lot of time a lot of hours a lot of preparation for
trial and um I think just the the stress of it is very difficult you know and but
at the same time I think that uh you learn to roll with the
punches but does it ever I mean how much do you fight self-pity
um to be honest with you I don't really I don't like self-pity good Doug Mackey
good luck thank you we're definitely rooting for you and I'm just I'm sorry on behalf of the country that you had to
go through this it's just one of the worst things I've ever seen thank you very much thank you very much thank
you
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